Oxford Sparks

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Emily Elias: Channel 4’s Countdown is one of those just iconic daytime television game shows. You’ve got your letters round, you’ve got your numbers round, and you have a ginormous clock in the background that you have to beat.

On this episode of The Oxford Sparks, Big Questions Podcast, we are doing something a little different. We are talking to an Oxford mathematician who was recently tapped to fill in for the queen of the numbers round, Rachel Riley. And we’re asking, what is it like to be on Countdown?

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Hello, I’m Emily Elias, and this is the show where we seek out the brightest minds at the University of Oxford, and we ask them the Big Questions. And for this one, we have found somebody who is not afraid to do maths on TV.

Tom Crawford: I’m Dr Tom Crawford. I’m the public engagement lead at the Department for Continuing Education. And as for what I actually do, I guess I get far too excited talking about maths, usually on video, on social media, on YouTube, and recently on TV with Countdown.

Emily: Yeah, so you’re moonlighting as a Countdown presenter. How a heck did this come to be?

Tom: Oh God, how did this happen? I don’t know, would be the easy answer? I’m still kind of in shock. I’m still in disbelief that this even happened, right? It has happened now, all of the episodes I recorded. So, I did three weeks on the show, and they were broadcast sort of mid-February to mid-March. So they have all now gone out, but even so, it doesn’t feel real. But how it sort of all happened, I received the classic mysterious email from somebody in TV saying, “I work for production company, would you be interested in a television opportunity?” And of course, I was like, “Yes, this sounds great.”

Emily: You didn’t think it was spam at all. You didn’t think it was a scam.

Tom: It sounded believable. So there are lots of, yeah, I definitely get a lot of them, where you could just tell immediately that they’re not real. But it was someone’s very specific name, and phone number, it all looked very official from the correct @blahblahblah.com that you would expect and things. So they wanted to arrange a phone call. So we had a chat on the phone a few days later. And then, was actually mentioned that this was for Countdown. And I was like, “Oh, well, this is even better.” Like, you know, at first, I didn’t know what it was. It was just some kind of television opportunity involving a mathematician. And then when I heard it was gonna be for Countdown and sort of temporary cover for Rachel got far too excited. And then I had to do a Zoom interview for, so that was maybe like an hour of just talking about myself and interests and various things. Then I was invited down to London to do a studio audition. So they set up like a mock studio with various cameras. And then had me do like an intro to the show. Sort of saying hello and introducing myself. And then had me do, I think it was like ten number rounds that I had to do with the timer. They were all quite tricky. Managed to get most of them. I want to say I got like eight out of ten, but they were all pretty hard. So I think they were purposefully like challenging us all.

Emily: Well, see anxiety level like when you’re like, okay, so just auditioning for a fantasy opportunity. And oh, by the way, I have to do maths problems quickly and be correct.

Tom: I mean, it’s terrifying, it is even as a mathematician. It’s probably more terrifying as a mathematician because I’m expected to be able to do this. So it was definitely a challenge, but at this stage for the audition, of course, I knew what was going to be expected. So I had been practising. You know, I spent, it was on a Monday and I spent the entire weekend before just literally sat at home, just doing puzzle after puzzle after puzzle, reading lots of various blogs on the internet from former contestants. Rachel had also very kindly sent me over some tips. ‘Cause I actually, I wouldn’t say I know Rachel well, but we did meet previously because we are both ambassadors for National Numeracy – so a charity that helps people to overcome maths anxiety. And we’d made some videos together in the past. So…

Emily: But very aptly, she came in to help you overcome your maths anxiety.

Tom: Yes, exactly, yeah. No, yeah, so it definitely helped me with the Countdown anxiety for sure. And so I spent a lot of time practising, which definitely helped. But I think it was definitely nerve-wracking and then again on the show, it is pretty terrifying. But at the same time, I’m just the kind of person who really does enjoy like a challenge. You know, I think almost everything, I’ve done in my career where everything that I do in my life is like, I enjoy challenging myself. And so I sort of took it in that way and thought right, well, this is hard, I’m gonna have to get good at this. I’m gonna have to practise. But you know, I kind of, I think I went into it with the right mindset of like, let’s enjoy it as much as I can and try and do as well as possible.

Emily: ‘Cause I imagine when you’re doing mathematics at the University, there isn’t this sort of element of adrenaline rush that goes along with it. How does it differ when you’re attacking a problem like that, like that’s very sort of like basic yet complicated, you know, how does it feel?

Tom: So, it’s a great question because it is entirely different. It is not, they, okay, so let’s say, they both fall within the realms of maths. Okay, so Countdown, you’re solving an arithmetic problem, multiplication, division, factorising numbers, et cetera. And doing research, you’re still tackling a maths problem. So I look at mathematical models for the spread of pollution in the ocean. But that’s like such a big question. There’s so much to it that there doesn’t feel, there’s not really pressure. It’s kind of like, oh, it’s just a really big problem and you just think about little bits of it and have ideas and there’s no rush. And it’s just, you know, these things just kind of, they take time and then they eventually like form together into an idea. So it almost couldn’t be any opposite when you have very specific constraints of, here are six numbers, you’ve only got plus, minus, multiply and divide. And you have to get your three digit target in 30 seconds. So it is very, very different, while still being maths.

So the way I approached it was, and this is a good bit of advice for Rachel, is I’m always looking for the more complex solution. And that’s not in any way to like try and show off, but that’s because if the problem is sort of doable in the sense of, so like a standard problem might be, take your big number, say you’ve got one large and five small, which is the most popular game. So take your big number, multiply it by one of the smalls to get as close as you can to the target. And then can you play around with those final four numbers to get the exact target by adding or minus-ing them at the end. And that will work maybe like a third of the time, but I’m just guessing there, I don’t know exactly, but it feels like one in three, one in four times that works.

Emily: I’ll trust you.

Tom: Yeah. Just based on my experience of doing lots of practice problems. But by going through that process, again, because you’ve only got 30 seconds, if that process doesn’t work, if that method doesn’t work, you then really don’t have any time to try another method. And so, you know, whilst it might work one in four, one in three times, you’re going to miss most problems inside the 30 seconds. And so sort of my role as the Arithmetician or mathematician on the show was to use the slightly more complicated methods. So for example, one of them is called split multiplication, which is incredibly handy, is to try and use that as like my first port of call, because it’s a much more versatile method. So it should still get me the answer if it’s an easy one, but if it’s like a medium level one, then it will work there as well. So you’re kind of like relying on the contestants to get the easy methods for you in a way, and then as the expert, I’m trying to sort of get the medium to hard ones correct. So I kind of ignored the easy methods, which generally worked, except there was one that I didn’t get, which was the easy method. And the bloody contestants didn’t get it either and so…

Emily: What happens in that scenario? Because that would be like, okay, you’ve done all your practices. You’ve gone through the producer’s test. You know, you’re on the stage. TV lights are on you and all of a sudden you don’t get the answer. Like, is there like a panic button in the studio where you can be like, okay, we just stall for a while.

Tom: Well, I figured so. There’s a great question. And the way it works is, and this is something that I think I knew was true, what surprised me is it’s completely real. So if I do not get it in 30 seconds, I do not get extra time. They don’t, because it’s, whilst it’s semi-live, as in we don’t do redoes, right? You know, whatever happens. But at the same time, if someone’s mic pops or something, then we will redo that sentence. Because of course, it’s a pre-recorded television show. But in the sense of it’s sort of semi-live, I think I would describe it. But that means that if I don’t get it in 30 seconds, and Colin the host says, you know, oh, the contestants didn’t get it. Tom, did you get it? That I have to go, not yet, give me a little bit more time. And then, I think by design, what happens is following each numbers round, there is either an ad break, or rather than there immediately being another round, there’s sort of, they go and talk to Susie, who does word of the day, or they talk to the guest, who sort of tells the story about their life and different things. So there’s always like, let’s say one to two minutes, after each numbers round. And then I’m just frantically trying to figure it out. Whilst everyone else is still filming and still recording. And then, they’ll come back to me, you know, Colin will say, and Tom, have you got it? And I’ll say either, in most cases, thankfully, I would say yes. Tell me a bit longer than the 30, but I’ve got it. And then I’d write up the solution. Or a couple of times, I’d just say, no, still stump me. And then what they would do is on the show, they just don’t come back to me. So if I get it, they come back to me, and you know, and give me a chance to sort of present the solution. But if I don’t get it, then they just kind of, everyone just kind of forgets that, you know, one minute earlier, I didn’t get it, and we all just kind of move on.

Emily: Right, we’re in the bright lights of daytime TV. We’ve just skated past that one.

Tom: Yes, exactly, exactly. Nobody worries about it. So unfortunately, that only happened once or twice during my three-week stint. But, you know, it’s just part and part of the game, right? Some of them are just really hard. Like, some of them have one solution only. And, you know, it might require you to go up into, so one of them I actually did get, but I needed extra time. I had to go up to like 4,000 and something, and then divide by five at the end to get the answer. So sometimes they are just, and that was the only possible solution. So I don’t know how I got that one in two minutes, to be honest. But, some of them are just hard.

Emily: There’s no, like, oh crap, a computer. That’s all of a sudden, I’m going to spit out the answer for you. You’re like–

Tom: No, so the producers have access to a solver. So they obviously, you know, can check in a way that I haven’t made a really silly error, right? So as the contestants are writing out their solution, or the contestant, you know, they’ll go to contestant one and say, did you get 903? And they’ll be like, yes, and then they’ll explain to me. I’ll write out their solution on the board. And obviously, at that point, I am the person who’s making sure everything they’re doing is correct, to make sure they haven’t made a slip. Or what happened a couple of times is sometimes they would use the same number twice. So there might only be, like, one, three. But they’ve used it twice in a solution, which, of course, is not allowed. So a couple of times, I would pick up on that. But then when it comes to me writing out my solution, then you need someone to still check that what I’m doing is correct. And so the producers there, they do actually have a solver, which they can, you know, recalculate to which, you know, behind the scenes, they’re checking to make sure that what I’m doing is actually correct. So the last thing you want is for me to say, yes, I’ve got it, and then write out something that then goes broadcast on television and turns out isn’t true.

Emily: I can imagine that the Channel 4 Countdown washers are like a real letter writing bunch.

Tom: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yes. No, it’s great. It’s such a community around the show. So I found that when it was being broadcast, you know, there were people sending me their solutions. They were people saying, oh, I saw you didn’t get this one in the time today. Here’s what I did. And it’s brilliant, like, that there’s such this such a community around the show. Like, it’s such a British institution of a television show, which I think makes it even more unbelievable that I got to be a part of it, to be honest.

Emily: I mean, I didn’t grow up with Countdown, but I would come to England in the summer holidays and my Nana’s house. And it was like appointment television.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely, yeah.

Emily: What does it mean to you to be a part of something that has such a legacy?

Tom: It’s very hard to put into words. I think still because I don’t believe it happened. Like, still, I’m still in this kind of state of disbelief about the whole experience. But I watched it as a kid, right? Which is just so crazy to think about. Like, I would come home from school, you know, have my like, bowl of cereal at 3.34 o’clock before and then wait for dinner. And like, Countdown would be on TV. So it’s sort of, yeah, it’s amazing to have been a part of that. And it’s very, very difficult, I think, to actually put into words what it means. But other than say it’s, it’s awesome.

Emily: And who knows? Maybe you get another call. Rachel, he’s still going on today. Come back on down.

Tom: It’s definitely, I am adamant in saying this. It’s obviously, it is Rachel’s job. But if Rachel doesn’t want to do it, then I will hardly step in.

Emily: She’s not a machine. She’s got to take some time off.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, no, well, that’s the thing, right? They do, I think, 250 shows a year. I think it is. It’s just crazy, right? It’s on every, every week day, every week without fail. So I think, yeah, but she’s been doing it for 15 years. And so I think, previously, has only taken time off for maternity leave before this. So this one was a filming clash. So she was filming some other project, which I actually, she still won’t even tell me what the other, but she wouldn’t tell any of us what the other project actually was. But there was a clash. This other project had to be filmed on these specific dates. But, you know, if Rachel wants to film other projects, I will happily step in. And step into her shoes, I was like, well, for a photo of the few more shows, definitely.

Emily: This podcast was brought to you by Oxford Sparks from the University of Oxford, with music by John Lyons and a special thanks to Dr. Tom Crawford.

Tell us what you think about this podcast. We are on the internet at Oxford Sparks. You can also go to our website, OxfordSparks.ox.ac.uk.

I’m Emily Elias, bye for now.

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